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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |

Daichi Yamato
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
790
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Posted - 2013.09.28 11:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
how do u prove someone isnt just looking to look and is in fact giving info to bad guys?
if i'm seen looking into someones car and then walk away. the police will not arrest me. if that car is then burgled, the police may come and ask me a few questions, but they'd have a hard time proving that i was involved.
so at best, the scanner should only be a suspect AFTER the gank has taken place.
and yes, scanners have an animation and sound. so u dnt need a flag to tell u that u've been scanned.
i dnt like this idea in general, but i also want to ask: What if scanning for contraband becomes a player activity? How do player custom enforcers scan other ppls ships for illegal items without going suspect or entering limited engagements all the time?
i not that bothered by ur own responses, but i'm aware CCP have thought about this and i'm pointing out that this idea would ruin it. There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |

Daichi Yamato
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
790
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 11:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:If we're using analogies, scanning is 'more than looking inside a car window'; it's akin to also capturing the license plate and VIN numbers. So in that sense, I think the intent is pretty clear. It means that if you scan - you takes your chances. 
not really. u dnt take the reg of a ship by scanning it. u look at what its carrying. when i look in a tescos van i can see its carrying food and household goods. it is also not an offense to look at it.
however, if someone wants to protect the identity of what they are carrying, they can through the use of containers. Kinda like what happens with valuable or secret items in RL.
the only reason ur vulnerable to scanning is because ur lazy and/or stupid. u deserve to get ganked if u think about it. There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |

Daichi Yamato
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
793
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 11:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
so lets say scanners go flashy. u engage with a PvP ship and then ur face goes white when u realise the scanner is actually baiting and his logi friends appear. u get stomped and the tears flow all the same. Since the T1 logistic buff ninja's and baiters are more commonly backed by RR. And going suspect for stealing cans and mission loot hasn't empowered the victim as much as u would hope. The same will be for scanning.
scanners will go suspect, but ppl will quickly learn that they are often baiting and backed up. And assuming that scanning does not cause a weapons timer, any non-combat prepared scout can jump the moment u open fire.
so even if scanners go suspect, the best counter to ganks are STILL and ALWAYS WILL BE:
1) carry less/take more trips 2) avoid dangerous systems or failing both of those, 3) fly with scouts, logi, webbers, boosters and ECM buds.
The whole process of implementing this would be largely futile, and still detrimental to any future plans to have players acting as customs peeps.
Ciaphas Cyne wrote: Its a win-win for everyone involved EXCEPT the carebear scout whos too afraid to get his guns warm but still wants the loot. its pathetic really.
except scouts are almost always alts. it has nothing to do with cowardice. chill out. There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |

Daichi Yamato
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
793
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 12:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote: so even if scanners go suspect, the best counter to ganks are STILL and ALWAYS WILL BE:
1) carry less/take more trips 2) avoid dangerous systems or failing both of those, 3) fly with scouts, logi, webbers, boosters and ECM buds.
The fact is that you now know you've been scanned (Cargo Scanned) and that person is now "Suspect" and you can make a note of who scanned you. If you wanted to take action you could, if any residents wanted to take action they could but everyone loves to pile on a suspect timer  . This isn't about avoiding the gank (which is unavoidable by because the scanner tells the gankers how many ships they need to pop you) it's about making people think twice before committing the intent to commit piracy. As noted before it is the intent to steal that "gank scanners" get away with, the gankers are dealt with by Concord or whatever as they go into "Criminal" flag and possibly lose they're ships (not that they are that bothered obviously). Why should the cherry-picking-scanners get all the odds stacked in their favour? It's like asking for a Pod\Implant scanner to choose which Pods to ransom and how much to ransom for.
choice is good, i agree with that. And if ppl want to get themselves into that thats fine. What i'm disputing is that suspect timers do not dispense justice like ppl seem to think they do. Hardly anyone touches people who have gone suspect, and with good reason.
ppl who go suspect generally come prepared, with friends and have a good knowledge of game mechanics. the majority of those who suddenly see someone go suspect on grid (e.g. general high sec population) have had no time to prepare, often have no friends nearby (if they have any in the game at all) and a limited knowledge of mechanics. They know that if they engaged, they'd be in over their depth. And there are those who do engage people with suspect timers and end up dying as my friends did just last night lol.
Scanning could become part of a legitimate career in eve, IS already part of spying and recon work and i wouldn't like it nerfed by a system that wouldn't really solve the issue of gankers pre-scanning. Especially when there are already existing counters to the real problem most of u have (which is ganking, this whole thread is about ganking, not scanning.) There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |

Daichi Yamato
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
793
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 01:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Ganking is the symptom of which Cargo Scanning is the cause. You scan before you gank (if you're in it for the profit\loss I believe) and hence all the "Wahhh" in this thread.
i'd have to disagree with u there. ganking is not a symptom of scanning. Scanning simply makes ganking more efficient.
Ciaphas Cyne wrote:ive never seen a bigger display of carebear crying!
"wahhh we wanna stealz yer stuff but dont wanna risk anything, please CCP i dont wanna lose T1 frig!!!!"
bunch of whining little scaredy-bears.
no one is crying as much as u mate. srs relax a little.
Ciaphas Cyne wrote: and put aside your personal agenda for like one second. this idea makes EVE, more EVE-y! its just a plain old cool idea and like many have said, its got real world roots.
to make way for YOUR personal agenda?
Ciaphas Cyne wrote: and FFS, no one hauls AFK without having the money to back the loss.
oh yes they do.
Ciaphas Cyne wrote: AFK haulers rarely complain on the forums because they are too busy making serious bank and laughing at the ganker who thinks taking down one of his 15 freighters that day is a good way to make money.
and yes they also complain a lot too. this thread, and many others about ganking, are born from an afk hauler. There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |

Daichi Yamato
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
793
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 01:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Maximus Aerelius wrote:So address the pre-cursor to the gank and stop taking this off topic if you would please. Tell me where is the risk to the scout\scanner in all this? There is none. But that's the way gankers like it - no risk. Scan ship/cargo - nothing valuable, find something else. Find something shiny, gank it.
the risk to the ganking squad as a whole is that they all lose their ships (save for the scanner admittedly) and there is no guarantee that anything will drop. There isnt even any guarantee that the hauler ship will be destroyed, some ganks fail outright. Esp if the hauler is escorted.
considering that the scanner is an alt, in free noob frig that can jump or warp the second the scan has gone through, how much risk do u think going suspect will add to the scanner? realistically? not a lot...all they have to do is dock with their pod to get another ship, fit a scanner and come straight back out again. or if anyone is camping the gate, get a combat ship and some RR buddies because now their in a ltd engagement.
TL:DR instead of making ganking more difficult, u'll be baited into fights u can't win...and u'll still get ur ships ganked. Far better off using more traditional anti-ganking tactics.
i'm saying this as a hauler myself, it accomplishes very little. u WILL just learn to ignore those scanning u just as u learn to ignore ninja salvagers. There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |

Daichi Yamato
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
797
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 11:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
i like the idea of using scanning for espionage and for players being able to scan other players cargo holds for contraband. If something more solid can come from this idea that does not affect either of the mentioned careers, i'd probably be more inclined toward change. There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |

Daichi Yamato
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
797
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 14:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:i like the idea of using scanning for espionage and for players being able to scan other players cargo holds for contraband. If something more solid can come from this idea that does not affect either of the mentioned careers, i'd probably be more inclined toward change. But players don't scan others cargoholds for contraband as "Customs Officer" isn't a career path in EVE currently, they scan them to pick the juiciest cargo. I'm still thinking about this idea and what you added above though. My comments not a flame just more of an observation but give me an IG actual example of someone playing "Customs Officer" and I'll retract 
how would u tell if he was playing customs officer or gank scanner? they are one in the same. the gankers just have to say they have declared trit an illegal commodity and then gank anyone carrying it. all of a sudden they are customs agents.
the customs officer thing has been hinted at by CCP for a future development. Rather than having NPC's check player cargo, leaving it to other players who can flag ppl carrying what the sov holders consider contraband. maybe it was an idea just thrown out there, but i liked it.
its true the primary use of cargo scanners is to find good targets to gank. there are few other reasons to want to know what someone else is carrying. but the whole scanning process is all part of a meta game, like spying, and having cloaky alts to provide warp ins. i would prefer that u didnt go suspect for providing a warp in during a dec, even though u are an accessory to the attack. For all concord can tell, u are an innocent bystander. Just like ppl 'scoping out a joint' in the movies.
When it boils down to it, its not the scanning that ppl mind, its the ganking to which there are already ways to mitigate risk. The proposal does little to remedy ganking. containers and double wrapping cargo already nullify scans as well. There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |

Daichi Yamato
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
797
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 02:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ciaphas Cyne wrote:Mag's wrote:Ciaphas Cyne wrote:cry moar That's an interesting and detailed rebuttal of the point made by Daichi Yamato. Thinking about it, you should go into politics. umm quote me his "point" and ill be super erudite about responding to it. at the moment all i heard was "please dont shoot me!!"
if u missed it, thats ur poor reading and comprehension skills. Everyone else understood it just fine.
Maximus Aerelius wrote:You can't user "Future" as a reasonable argument. Future development isn't current IG.
People 'scoping out joints' are generally found, thrown up against a wall and charged with being an accessory or aiding and abetting I believe but we can't do that in EVE.
It's the scanning that leads to the ganking I'm afraid. If you didn't know for sure what was in it then how do you know that it'd be worth the cost\risk of actually ganking it? You wouldn't. Now some people do gank anything just for the lols and they will but most do it for profit and will only hit what they think will payback +profit on their loss.
As for the disposable alts mostly used for ganking...well there's a flaw in the system that this clearly highlights don't you think? The fact that ganking and the chars used are so disposable would highlight that to me.
We understand that the illusion of fitting against a gank can be achieved however you cannot stop a dedicated gank (and I don't mean two ships) which destroys your ship in 1 volley. So what can you do? Look to the root cause. What caused those 20 T2 fitted Catalysts with 14400 damage in Volley #1 to pick that particular hauler? I'll let you think on that for a bit.
I'm sorry but I don't follow the "warp in for a dec" analogy. You'll have to expand on that one or explain "dec" to me as could be a number of things.
ppl scoping out joints are found when they are found. How can u possibly state that they are 'generally found'? especially as those who successfully get away with it are unlikely to come forward for the purposes of statistics.
ur right, it is very difficult to stop a gank once its started. so why put urself in that situation in the first place? look at the root cause? the root cause of ganking is haulers undocking with a high value of goods in their hold. scanning is not a cause, it has never been a cause, it will never be a cause. I can scan 1000 empty noob ships, but they wont get ganked. fill those noob ships with 6% implants and suddenly they are getting ganked.
what caused those catalysts to gank that particular hauler was that hauler was carrying a lot of isk in items and likely did not take any steps to prevent or at least make himself harder to gank, was likely afk with no friends and traveling through a system renown for its ganking. why dnt u think about that for a bit?
as for the 'dec' analogy; if a scanner is an accessory to the gank, then using neutral characters to track war targets and to provide warp in points is also an accessory to that war. the neutral in this instance also suffers no risk. should he also be going suspect?
what about neutral ppl using chat channels to tell attackers that a victim is in local with them and what they are flying? should they also go suspect?
having friends use locator agents to find a person of interest for u? are they also an accessory, and therefore should go suspect, for what ur about to do with that information? There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |

Daichi Yamato
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
797
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 10:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mole Guy wrote:
it doesnt matter WHERE you get scanned. it matters that they DO scan you. once they do, no matter WHERE you are, you run the risk of being shot.
no matter where u are u run the risk of getting shot by undocking... There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |
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Daichi Yamato
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
797
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 10:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
which is fair enough.
i'm just stressing what i believe is the root cause of ganking: Undocking in something that might be worth ganking There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |

Daichi Yamato
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
797
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 02:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote: And that there's no defence or way to combat the gankers except to just re-ship and try again?
ummmm.....
Daichi Yamato wrote:...so even if scanners go suspect, the best counter to ganks are STILL and ALWAYS WILL BE:
1) carry less/take more trips 2) avoid dangerous systems or failing both of those, 3) fly with scouts, logi, webbers, boosters and ECM buds. There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |
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